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 Post subject: Expanded UWP (Cepheus)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:27 pm 
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I am working on expanding the UWP (world stats) beyond anything Traveller has done before. Going back to the original LBBs, the UWP (not even called that then) was for creating Interesting Mainworlds. It was never intended to be used for every world in a planetary system without change... but it has been. Since then, everyone has used that system (and range of values) as gospel on how worlds will look everywhere.

I do not want to CHANGE the UWP system, just expand it and provide rules for rolling NON-Mainworlds. I will be doing separate posts for each characteristic, for ease of responses (:) )

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:34 pm 
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Will this be including a generation process or is it just a listing?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:47 pm 
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SIZE
Size only goes to A (10000 mile diameter) but there are known exoplanets that are larger than that. So, if we simply expand it to B and C, we can cover them. The question I have on SIZE is does it realistically need to go higher than C (12000-13000 mile diameter)? At some point, it is going to become a small gas giant, so there should be a natural upper limit. BUT, if the world is located in the Inner Zone (inside the habitable zone), there will be essentially no volatiles and so forming a Gas Giant would be much harder, so a larger rocky world (or an exposed Gas Giant core) could exist (I think). While it is no big deal either way to me, I want to make sure I am accounting for all logically possible worlds, based on what we know today, but not add sizes that are really not possible.

When we move away from rocky worlds to Gas Giants, I think there should be THREE categories of gas giants, not the traditional 2 from Traveller.

Small Gas Giants (SGG): These are like Neptune and Uranus (10-50 earth masses). Same as before.

Medium Gas Giants (MGG): These are like Saturn and Jupiter, formerly the LGG. These would be from 100 - 600 Earth Masses (Saturn is about 100, Jupiter is about 320). There is a natural upper limit to the size of a gas giant and it is reached at about 500 earth masses, so that natural upper size limit becomes the upper limit to the MGG.

Large Gas Giants (LGG): These are the gas giants that have reached that upper size limit and are just more massive; all the way up to Brown Dwarfs (which are stars in my system). So 2-15 Jupiter Masses (600 - 4500 Earth Masses)

LGG's are the only ones massive enough to have Earth-sized moons.

Interestingly enough, SGGs and LGGs are too massive for most starships to be able to skim for fuel. MGG's are ideal. In the So..)l System, Saturn is the ideal skimming planet as 1 ATM pressure occurs at 1G gravity... (how interesting)

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:52 pm 
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hiro wrote:
Will this be including a generation process or is it just a listing?


My goal is to include a detailed Generation process.

I want to start with the mainworld UWP (including PBG info per Cepheus), then expand the generation process for every world (planet and moon) in a planetary system. THEN there will be a process to detail a world, density, rotation etc.) as needed.

I envision a "top down" approach where you can go to whatever level of detail you need to.

Basic System Info (per Cepheus SRD including PBG)
Expanded System Info (adding stars and some other minor system details)
Detailed System info (UWP fore very planet and moon with UWPs and orbital info)
Detailed World Info (very detailed info on any of the planets or moons as needed)

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:09 pm 
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ATMOSPHERE

This is the one area where Traveller got it a bit wrong. I understand that BREATHABILITY is the key component to the code, and that should stay. BUT, I think that there are too many breathable codes, specifically, I think ATM 2 and 3 should NOT be breathable at all.

ATM 2 VERY THIN should be just that - more than a trace atmosphere, but not breathable. Mars would be this code now. It would be exotic, require a pressure suit and oxygen, but not a vacc suit like 0 or 1.

ATM 3 VERY THIN, TAINT - becomes THIN, EXOTIC - This would be a theoretical atmosphere that is less than 1 bar of pressure and not breathable. Oxygen is required, but not a pressure suit. It is very similar to ATM A, but with lower pressure. I expect many small worlds will have this kind of atmosphere.

Having said this, I don't know if 3 is different enough from A to justify its own code. I could use some help/suggestions here.

ATM 4 (THIN, TAINT) and 5 (THIN) are now quite a bit less habitable. Essentially it means "LOW OXYGEN" - a Compressor mask is necessary.

ATM 8 (DENSE) and 9 (DENSE, TAINT) are also less habitable, "HIGH OXYGEN" - a dilutor mask is required. Breathable on mountain tops, but too much oxygen at sea level. This doesn't have to be a percentage thing, if the Atmosphere has 2-3 Bars of pressure, you would only need 10% or so oxygen to be too much partial pressure for humans.

Likewise ATM D (Very Dense), E (Thin, Low) are also not breathable, although the density is right.

I realize that these interpretations are going to be VERY contraversial, so I will likely list them as OPTIONAL INTERPRETATIONS, rather than propose them as actual rule changes.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:32 pm 
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HYDROGRAPHICS

Not much to change here, the values and reasoning make perfect sense for a world in the Habitable Zone. For world in the OUTER zone, on the other hand, it fails miserably. Even LBB5 screwed this up as they listed Europa as HYD 0, even though they KNEW it was covered in ice.

I propose to expand the Hydrographics Rating to include Ice Cover for those (many) worlds with no liquid water but ice.

B = 10% ice cover
C = 20% ice cover
D = 30% ice cover
E = 40% ice cover
F = 50% ice cover
G = 60% ice cover
H = 70% ice cover
J = 80% ice cover
K = 90% ice cover
L = 100% ice cover

If there is liquid water, that rating is always used, even if there is a mix of ice and water. ONLY when there is no surface liquid water, just ice, is the ice rating used. So Europa would be L; Ganymede would be a G (I think...). Mars would be B or C (Depending on season...)

Also, the presense of ice on planets and moon means that Gas Giant skimming is not really needed as much. It is MUCH easier to land on a small moon, melt some ice into water, purify it and use the hydrogen as fuel (and the oxygen to breath), than it is to skim the atmosphere of a gas giant a couple of times. Probably takes about the same time...

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:37 pm 
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POPULATION

No changes. I don't know if it is necessary to include POP B (10's of billions) or C (hundreds of billions), but in SciFi, worlds like Trantor or Corusant would mean that a rating like that should exist. Also, some aliens might have higher population densities than humans, so they should be included...

GOVERNMENT
Same here, no changes. They are too iconic to change. HOW they are rolled might change though... Alternate options...

For Secondary Worlds (other populated worlds within the same planetary system), I will probably use a simple 1D6 table. The general assumption is that each planetary system has a single government (unless GOV 7 is rolled).

LAW LEVEL

Same, no major changes. I might expand on the details a bit, after all the Law Level listed is more about what weapons a Character can legally carry, rather than anything about how invasive the goverment is into people's lives.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:39 pm 
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TECH LEVEL

WAY to much here...

HOW the Tech Level is determined is so iconic, it is almost impossible to change. I will likely present several different scenarios for setting types and then let the Referee decide.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:22 pm 
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One thing that LBB5 introduced, and makes sense, is the different habitability ZONES in a planetary system.

LBB5 used INNER, HABITABLE, and OUTER as their zones.

EDG has been a vocal advocate for a MIDDLE zone, which extends from the Habitable zone to the Frost Line.

I get that, but I wonder about the boundary between Inner and Habitable zones? I have been calling it the "Vapor Line" but I cannot find ANYTHING anywhere about where this would be located in a planetary system. Obviously there is a Temperature above which volatiles will not precipitate out and be part of the planetary formation process. ANY help in this area would be appreciated. I have been using the inner edge of the Habitable zone (about 0.7 AU for the Sol system); but that is based on nothing but a guess. Black Body temperature is probably tied into this (hopefully), but what temperature? 375K (boiling point of water) or some higher/lower value?????

Second Question - is there really a difference between the Habitable Zone and the Middle Zone? COULD a world with a Dense atmosphere and decent CO2 level (ATM 9) located near the Frost Line, have liquid water and still be considered "Habitable"????? I am thinking that it is really the same thing, and when you consider denser atmospheres with a slightly higher greenhouse gas effect, the Habitable and the Middle zone are basically the same thing. Habitable zone usually means "Earth" at that location, not "Sort-of-Earth". Am I totally off here?????

If I am wrong, what is the real difference between worlds in the Habitable Zone and worlds in the Middle Zone??? Worst case, the Habitable Zone is based on a specific species (default is human), but some races might have higher or lower tolerances to heat/cold, so the habitable zone could change by species, but the Middle Zone is fixed based on planetology.

I hope to produce a table for various stars (M0V to F5V) that shows the various Zones, but I don't know if I need 3 or 4 Zones...
Formulas will also be provided for those who are using real stars with real Luminosities.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:19 am 
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I think its a good project, but I'm afraid I have a couple of small disagreements with what you've proposed.
I feel its obvious that the standard UWP procedure directly targets worlds in the habitable zone and would not work effectively in the other zones. As a result, atmospheres assume breath-ability and hydrographics assume liquid water. This pretty much means that they are useless for inner, middle, and outer zones.

For size, you could use the typical method but say its the radius in km. A '10' would then give a world radius of 10,000 km which is a world diameter of 12,420 miles

I feel that the atmosphere code should refer to pressure only and then make note of the composition separately based Jean's escape. As oxygen is likely a product of life, and life generally requires liquid water, then a breathable atmosphere is really only available in the habitable zone except in odd, rare ( ref generated? ) cases. Iirc, Book 6 used hydrographic% to estimate percentage of oxygen in the atmosphere.

I also feel the hydrographic% refers to liquid water and thus ice shouldn't really count as outside the habitable zone even if there are subsurface oceans. But that's just my opinion. Of course you could just check with Jean's escape and temperature to see what might be liquid in the middle/outer zone.

Except for the size part, this is how I go about generating a UWP ( although it is still geared for habitable zone worlds ) from a few years ago.
https://sites.google.com/site/moukotige ... /uwp-1/uwp
Here is an inkling of how I handle population...
https://sites.google.com/site/moukotige ... population

Everything else, I handle in a completely different fashion and I've not written it down in a form I can put online yet.
Tech, gov, law, starport, ect. is modified by pop, and Hofstede's Cultural Dimensions.
From these, I guesstimate the economy based on Pocket Empires.

I'll be glad to post my crude spreadsheet if it might be helpful or give ideas. ( its only rough system info and habitable zone for now.... not even moons yet )

Richard

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