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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:27 pm 
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The as published Mongoose world building rules generate the main world in a system.

WITHOUT looking back at MegaTraveller or other editions, I am interested in expanding the generation process to allow building the entire system, not just what is created in the Main World UWP. Again, this is per Mongoose Traveller (1st or 2nd Edition, they are the same).

So, I am going to use a method that assumes the Referee has already rolled up everything (including Temperture) from the basic UWP rules for his main world and now wants to expand it to fill out the entire planetary system.

I DON'T want to recreate Scouts or First In or World Builders Handbook, the idea is to make something that is reasonably QUICK but also reasonably scientifically sound, based on what we now know about extra-solar planets.

For convenience, I will be using a ZOOM IN approach so that a Referee can as a little detail (equivalent to the Expanded UWP from MegaTraveller) or go all the way and generate UWPs for every planet and moon in the system. (with maybe an intermediate stop in the middle).

Since this is for Traveller, it must be D6 based, although D3 or D66 would be allowed.

First thing, is to expand the UWP CODES to include non-habitable worlds (super-Earths etc.). Here is what I had in mind.

SIZE [Diameter in Miles(Km)]:
0: <1,000 (<1,600)
1: 1,000 - 1,999 (1600 - 3199)
2: 2,000 - 2,999 (3200 - 4799) [Luna, Europa]
3: 3,000 - 3,999 (4800 - 6399) [Mercury, Ganymede]
4: 4,000 - 4,999 (6400 - 7999) [Mars]
5: 5,000 - 5,999 (8000 - 9600)
6: 6,000 - 6,999 (9600 - 11199)
7: 7,000 - 7,999 (11200 - 12799) [Venus]
8: 8,000 - 8,999 (12800 - 14399) [Earth]
9: 9,000 - 9,999 (14400 - 15999)
A: 10,000 - 10,999 (16000 - 17599)
B: 11,000 - 11,999 (17600 - 19199)
C: 12,000 - 12,999 (19200 - 20799)
D: 13,000 - 13,999 (20800 - 22399)
E: 14,000 - 14,999 (22400 - 23999)
F: >15,000 (24000 +) [Solid surface]
G: Gas Dwarf [hypothetical large solid surface with a thick hydrogen/helium atmosphere]
H: Ice Giant [Uranus and Neptune etc.]
J: Gas Giant [Jupiter and Saturn etc. but not a brown dwarf]

ATMOSPHERE:
0: None (Moon)
1: Trace (Mars)
2: Very Thin Taint
3: Very Thin
4: Thin, Tainted
5: Thin
6: Standard (Earth)
7: Standard, Tainted
8: Dense
9: Dense, Tainted
A: Exotic, Standard
B: Corrosive
C: Insidious
D: Very Dense
E: Thin Exotic
F: Unusual
G: Giant (Hydrogen/Helium)

NOTE: Exotic (A) now has a density of Standard or higher, thus Titan is ATM=A adn E is not Thin EXOTIC, not Thin-High which makes no sense and should really just be ATM 2-5 depending if breathable.

TEMPERATURE:
Cryonic: 4K - 20K (Interstellar space)
Frigid: 20K - 120K (Outer Solar System)
Frozen: 120K - 220K (Snowline to CO2 Sublimation)
Cold: 221K - 270K (Near Sublimation point of CO2 to Liquid Water)
Temperate: 0C - 30C (271K-300K) - I know this isn't exactly right, but since the REAL scale should be in Kelvin, not Centigrade, I am going to round towards that...)
Hot: 301K - 350K (Temperate to near Boiling Point
Roasting: 351K - 400K (transitions the boiling point of water)
Furnace: 401K - 500K
Infernal: >501K (some metals begin to melt)

NOTE: The break points going Lower in temperature are based on physical things happening to water, going up, it is just a guess...

HYDROGRAPHICS: (Potentially Contriversial...)
0: 0% - 5% (Desert) (Luna, Mercury, Venus, Io)
1: 6% - 15% Liquid (Dry)
2: 16% - 25% Liquid (Small Seas)
3: 26% - 35% Liquid (Small Oceans)
4: 36% - 45% Liquid (Wet)
5: 46% - 55% Liquid (Large Oceans)
6: 56% - 65% Liquid
7: 66% - 75% Liquid (Earthlike)
8: 76% - 85% Liquid (Water world)
9: 86% - 95% Liquid (Small Islands)
A: 96% - 100% Liquid (all water)
B: 6% - 15% Ice
C: 16% - 25% Ice (Mars)
D: 26% - 35% Ice
E: 36% - 45% Ice
F: 46% - 55% Ice
G: 56% - 65% Ice (Ganymede)
H: 66% - 75% Ice
J: 76% -85% Ice
K: 86% - 95% Ice
L: 96% - 100% Ice (Europa)

NOTE: This gets rid of the problem that Traveller has with not being able to track icy worlds which could be used for refueling...

COMMENTS and CRITICISMS are most welcome!

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 8:47 am 
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You could add hydrographics codes M through V to indicate liquids other than water, and/or ice that isn´t frozen water - IIRC Titan has hydrocarbon seas, for example.

Or you could use B though L for that; I´m not sure you need separate hydrographics codes for that. Water is water, no matter if frozen or liquid. You could insert a lower-case "c" between atmosphere and hydrographics to indicate a world so cold it has no liquid water, only frozen water, and perhaps a lowercase "h" if a world is too hot to have liquid water.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 3:37 pm 
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Interesting idea!

Alternately, if there is a Temperture given (which there will be), then that would tell you if there is Ice or Water, so the B+ codes could be non-water liquids, which would be very rare, but as we see with Titan, quite possible. I like that much better than how I was going to do it.

THANKS!

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 3:09 pm 
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Looks good to me.

One question: Why the need for new hydrographics codes for non-water liquids? Pre-Mongoose Traveller took care of that with the "Fl" code under the trade comments. I don't utilize the Mongoose rules, so if that's changed, I'm unaware.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 6:55 pm 
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I guess I really don't. At first I was thinking ice vs. liquid since the original Traveller data did not count Ice as part of the hydrographics (they didn't know that Europa was ice-bound, and even when they did, they didn't change its UWP).

Using the IC and FL trade codes might be enough for the hydrographics part of the expanded UWP.

I do want to try to keep it simple, and re-using the existing codes might be the better way to go.

Thanks!

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 7:47 pm 
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Cyborg IM1 wrote:
I guess I really don't. At first I was thinking ice vs. liquid since the original Traveller data did not count Ice as part of the hydrographics (they didn't know that Europa was ice-bound, and even when they did, they didn't change its UWP).

Using the IC and FL trade codes might be enough for the hydrographics part of the expanded UWP.

I do want to try to keep it simple, and re-using the existing codes might be the better way to go.

Thanks!


Since this is for all worlds in the system, how would I differentiate a world with a liquid ammonia ocean from a ball of ammonia ice?
Would it get both the IC and FL trade codes for the second case?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 8:02 pm 
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The only problem with the existing Ic code is that (unless it's been changed) the definition is atmosphere based: any vacuum or trace atm world with Hydrographics 1+. It doesn't take temperature into account, like say most worlds that orbit a red dwarf or anything in the outer zone of a system. And Traveller's definition of hydrographics typically left ice out of it; only liquid water was referenced. So what I typically do when I discover this is that I go back and add Ic to the Trade column anyway.

But having a column in the UWP for temperature would drastically change things for the better. It could change the definition of Ic to: TEMP 4- HYD 1+ (where 4 stands for "Cold" in the chart under your initial post).

Expanding it further to include non-water fluids/ices: ATM 9- TEMP 4- HYD 1+ OR ATM A+ TEMP 2- HYD 1+

Of course messing with the number of digits in the UWP is forbidden. ;)

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 8:03 pm 
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atpollard wrote:
Since this is for all worlds in the system, how would I differentiate a world with a liquid ammonia ocean from a ball of ammonia ice?
Would it get both the IC and FL trade codes for the second case?


Yes. That's what I do.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 3:35 pm 
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That's what I was thinking too, force the IC and FL codes where needed. But for your example of Ammonia Ice world, there is also likely to be a lot of water ice present, so you might be able to leave off the FL code. However, I think it would be added for "flavor" and to show that the majority of the Ice is not water ice.

The UWP generation method was never supposed to be scientifically accurate nor to be able to represent every world in a system. It even said in LBB1-3 that it was to create Interesting Main Worlds.

So, if you start there, you have adapt the generation system to fit reality.

Mongoose Traveller added Temperature, and again, it is designed for Mainworlds, but can be easily expanded for all other temperature ranges. Deciding on the dividing lines was the hardest part.

The generation system that I am working on will, unfortunately, be a lot more table driven based on Temperature than just a simple, roll 2D-7+xxx like the Mainworld; but my goal is to still make it really easy. For example, for worlds in the Outer Zone, I was thinking about going with 2D-2 for Hydrographics (with the IC code) and ignore the adjustment for size. Not perfectly scientific but it will "feel" more realistic.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 10:03 pm 
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Cyborg IM1 wrote:
That's what I was thinking too, force the IC and FL codes where needed. But for your example of Ammonia Ice world, there is also likely to be a lot of water ice present, so you might be able to leave off the FL code. However, I think it would be added for "flavor" and to show that the majority of the Ice is not water ice.


Well, you really won't have ammonia ice separate from water ice in nature. Ammonia gas is miscible in water, and its solubility actually increases as temperature drops. Whether it comes from pure gas or dissolving a salt like ammonium chloride, you're going to get ammonium hydroxide via an ionic bond. The concentration of ammonium ions will determine its freezing point, which if you know your refrigerants, you're already aware of that. :) Once mixed, the only way to really separate the ammonia from water is to boil off the ammonia.

So I believe that you would need both FL--to indicate a non-water fluid--and IC--to indicate that it has been turned to ice.

Cyborg IM1 wrote:
The UWP generation method was never supposed to be scientifically accurate nor to be able to represent every world in a system. It even said in LBB1-3 that it was to create Interesting Main Worlds.


True. If it had been intended to be scientifically accurate, I'd like to think it would've been made better from the start.

Cyborg IM1 wrote:
Mongoose Traveller added Temperature, and again, it is designed for Mainworlds, but can be easily expanded for all other temperature ranges. Deciding on the dividing lines was the hardest part.


They did? Was it added to the UWP? Please forgive my ignorance. I haven't really followed new product development since Avenger closed its doors.

Cyborg IM1 wrote:
The generation system that I am working on will, unfortunately, be a lot more table driven based on Temperature than just a simple, roll 2D-7+xxx like the Mainworld; but my goal is to still make it really easy. For example, for worlds in the Outer Zone, I was thinking about going with 2D-2 for Hydrographics (with the IC code) and ignore the adjustment for size. Not perfectly scientific but it will "feel" more realistic.


I have no problem with that. :)

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