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 Post subject: Re: TAS issues
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 6:01 am 
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LiNeNoiSe wrote:
Golan2072 wrote:
I think that this is the main issue with TAS. As long as Stellagama Publishing can protect its IP, as well as get access to PoD options for its products, we can live with a 50% cut. But we really need these marketing tools, as without them we are dead in the water. Especially when we need more sales than usual to cover our production costs when we get only 50% of the sale revenues rather than 75%.


Does 25 percent go to DTRP? Sounds kinda steep. Do you get the whole 75 percent with the OGL?

With the OGL - yes. With TAS - they were taking 50%.

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 Post subject: Re: TAS issues
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:34 pm 
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Thanks, Omer. I was wondering how that worked. I think it might be time to start developing retro-clones for 2d6. Must be 15 or 20 for d20.

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 Post subject: Re: TAS issues
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:48 am 
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There is already a major 2d6 Sci-Fi OGL retro-clone, called the Cepheus Engine.

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 Post subject: Re: TAS issues
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:13 pm 
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Retro clone is a bit harsh Omar!

Well, I guess my bias against the word retro is coming into play :D

I like Cepheus, gives me a good base to then do what I like with a SFRPG.


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 Post subject: Re: TAS issues
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:09 am 
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I'm familiar with Cepheus. I was thinking of something more along the lines of OSRIC or Labyrinth Lord, rather than just an SRD.

Think there would be a market for it?

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 Post subject: Re: TAS issues
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 1:46 am 
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OK, I am not familiar with either OSRIC or Labyrinth Lord so I googled them.

As they're both free downloads, when you ask if there's a market, are you thinking in the sense that you could make money from what you'd write and publish?

Or what were you envisioning?


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 Post subject: Re: TAS issues
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 6:23 am 
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LiNeNoiSe wrote:
[
It also uses equatorial co-ordinates. Boo! Hiss!

I like Equatorial. To start with, it is a right-handed co-ordinate system.

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 Post subject: Re: TAS issues
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:31 am 
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hiro wrote:
OK, I am not familiar with either OSRIC or Labyrinth Lord so I googled them.

As they're both free downloads, when you ask if there's a market, are you thinking in the sense that you could make money from what you'd write and publish?

Or what were you envisioning?


I'm afraid I'm not all that familiar with D&D retro-clones myself :)

I used them as an example because they both have a lot of supplements. I don't know if they're any good, or if anybody has made any money off them, but there are bunches of them.

I'm mostly just thinking out loud, wondering if perhaps there would be a whole line of 2d6, e.g.

Book 2: Advanced Ground Combat
Book 3: Advanced Naval Design
Book 4: Advanced Stellar Exploration
Book 5: Advanced Wheeling & Dealing


Or, perhaps multiple lines like:

2d6 Space Civil War
2d6 Intelligent Malware
2d6 Early Empire
2d6 Alternate Timeline


Yeah, I'm joking about those multiple lines. Sorta :D

.

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 Post subject: Re: TAS issues
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:58 pm 
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I am not an expert at saying whether there's a market for what you're proposing. Like most I have an opinion but who knows what it's worth?

For me, CE gives me a simple system that pretty much works as is out of the box. I'm using it as a launch pad for a game/setting after many years playing Traveller and the Traveller setting just not being what I want from a SFRPG. It has a familiarity which makes it very easy to learn and adapt.

I have a feeling that most people will use CE in a similar way, either as a simple rule set to let them play or as a framework to build their own on. With the Book 2-5 idea, you're rehashing what Mongoose have done already. If people want a collection of rule books to add detail/complexity to a game they already have it. Whether you think Mongoose's rules are any good is another story altogether and with 2e now out and expanding, that's what you'll be competing against.

I think I might buy it but primarily to see what I could adapt/borrow/steal! I don't think I'm indicative of the majority of gamers but there are definitely a few like me, not enough to make much/any money from tho.

In short then, no, I don't think there's a market for books to expand a CE type ruleset that you could expect to sell to make any decent amount of cash from.

I'm keen to hear what others on the forum think.

ETA: Looking at books like 13 Mann's Robots, maybe I was wrong. Where a rules book can add to an existing system and do it better than the original publisher, yes there's a market. Maybe working with people like Gypsy Knights Games could be an avenue to explore, they've published a version of the CE for their setting and while I don't play the setting yet, I bought the book. Personally, I would like additional rules books for something like the CE to be relatively small and concise. I want to be able to add rules into a game quickly and easily to keep a game rules light and fast to play.

What I still can't say is how big this market is or how much money there is to be made from it. It seems likely to me that the RPG market is dominated by a few companies that make a living from it and the vast majority of small publishers do it as a hobby for beer money and have to run a full time job to pay the bills.


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 Post subject: Re: TAS issues
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:40 pm 
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Thanks for the detailed reply, hiro. You managed to answer most of my questions even though I wasn't very specific in asking them :)

hiro wrote:
I am not an expert at saying whether there's a market for what you're proposing. Like most I have an opinion but who knows what it's worth?


Might be worth quite a bit. I'm assuming that you're a typical SFRPG player - the type of person who might be interested in buying games and supplements. I'm sure those who design games would be interested in your opinion.

Quote:
For me, CE gives me a simple system that pretty much works as is out of the box. I'm using it as a launch pad for a game/setting after many years playing Traveller and the Traveller setting just not being what I want from a SFRPG. It has a familiarity which makes it very easy to learn and adapt.


I haven't delved too deeply into it yet, but it's definitely an improvement over the "official" OGL from Mongoose. I especially liked the Supplement 4 careers.

Quote:
I have a feeling that most people will use CE in a similar way, either as a simple rule set to let them play or as a framework to build their own on. With the Book 2-5 idea, you're rehashing what Mongoose have done already. If people want a collection of rule books to add detail/complexity to a game they already have it. Whether you think Mongoose's rules are any good is another story altogether and with 2e now out and expanding, that's what you'll be competing against.


I don't know. I never did buy GURPS 4 and I'm not going to buy MGT2. Given the history of Traveller, third party products will probably be much better than the official releases.

Quote:
I think I might buy it but primarily to see what I could adapt/borrow/steal! I don't think I'm indicative of the majority of gamers but there are definitely a few like me, not enough to make much/any money from tho.


That's kinda what I was thinking. There will always be collectors who will buy anything. I was one when I was younger. It's different now. Games just cost too much. MGT2 books were $50 when they were released. I see they're down to $30 on DriveThru now. I'll bet that the collectors who couldn't wait are irate about that. :)

I had no idea that DriveThru confiscated 25 percent off the top. I figured ten, maybe 15 percent which would be pretty steep. Somebody over there is making a killing. No wonder games cost so much.

Quote:
In short then, no, I don't think there's a market for books to expand a CE type ruleset that you could expect to sell to make any decent amount of cash from.


Yeah, nobody's gonna get rich by selling $5 pdf's. I wonder how the adventures are selling? I believe that was the reason WOTC gave for establishing the OGL in the first place. They made all their money off of manuals. Claimed they didn't make much from adventures. Pathfinder seems to be making hundreds of them.

Quote:
I'm keen to hear what others on the forum think.


So am I. :)

Quote:
ETA: Looking at books like 13 Mann's Robots, maybe I was wrong. Where a rules book can add to an existing system and do it better than the original publisher, yes there's a market. Maybe working with people like Gypsy Knights Games could be an avenue to explore, they've published a version of the CE for their setting and while I don't play the setting yet, I bought the book. Personally, I would like additional rules books for something like the CE to be relatively small and concise. I want to be able to add rules into a game quickly and easily to keep a game rules light and fast to play.


Thanks for the head's up on Robots. I'd never heard of it. If I ever get any extra money, I might check it out. It's too bad their deal with Liftoff! fell through. I really liked how it was going. Might want to think about including some of it in a Cepheus version.

I feel kinda dumb after going over to DriveThru. I didn't know there was so much third party stuff available. The Gypsy Knights are really pumping them out. Just poking around answered a lot of my questions. Most of them seem to be moving to Cepheus.

The D&D retro-cloners claim they're successful because they "fixed" the old rules. Can you imagine trying to fix MegaTraveller? Maybe I could sell a copy of 2d6 Space Civil War to Aramis. :D

Somebody might be able to make some money if they could make Fire, Fusion, and Steel usable.

Quote:
What I still can't say is how big this market is or how much money there is to be made from it. It seems likely to me that the RPG market is dominated by a few companies that make a living from it and the vast majority of small publishers do it as a hobby for beer money and have to run a full time job to pay the bills.


Traveller in particular seems to be pretty much a niche market. We went through some of the reasons in the various T5 threads. I don't know if it's possible to "grow" the market. Several d20 SFRPG have been developed with "old school" rules. Stars Without Number seems to be pretty successful, but I think that's largely due to the rules Crawford created himself. I'd guess that Blood and Space was more popular than d20 Future. Don't know if we could attract any of those players.

Thanks again for your insight.

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