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 Post subject: shipyard
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 2:15 pm 
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NB: I think this is one of those topics that might require a lot of "house rules" stuff if you don't assume 3I as the setting.

A type A starport means there are starship construction facilities. I assume that could be an orbital facility or something groundside.

What kind of infrastructure does that imply? How many people do you need? Both as employees and supporting industry.

Boeing is something like 150,000 employees, and the Seattle metro area is a little less than 4 million people. Is that a fair real-world comparison?

It doesn't really distinguish between "able to build 200t traders" vs. "able to build "2000t frigates" which probably matters a lot.

On a related note, in the 2300 setting can anyone besides Earth build starships?


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 Post subject: Re: shipyard
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 3:40 pm 
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Matt Wilson wrote:
What kind of infrastructure does that imply? How many people do you need? Both as employees and supporting industry.

This would depend very much on the role of robots in the setting, a mostly robotic shipyard location would require very little infrastructure to house, feed and entertain humans. The transport network and its capacity would also be important, a shipyard with a good logistics system would not need most of its supporting industry nearby. By the way, I am not convinced that the size of ships built at the shipyard is really an important factor, even small shipyards can build big ships, it just takes longer.


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 Post subject: Re: shipyard
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 7:06 pm 
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GURPS Traveller: Starports is my long answer to these questions -- I wrote the starport design chapter. Some real-world figures I found for a similar discussion are repeated below:

Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 11:33:52 -0600
From: thrash@io.com
Subject: Re: Shipyard productivity

At 23:59:45, Feb 27, 2002, Hans Rancke-Madsen (rancke@diku.dk) wrote:
> Anybody know how many man-weeks it takes to build a surface ship of
> equivalent size in the Real world?

Took me a while to find some useful statistics, but this seems to work:

http://www.coltoncompany.com/shipbldg/statistics.htm

"From 1958 to 1999, the US shipbuilding industry averaged 4.3 tons/production worker/yr (+/- 2.1), or 12.1 man-weeks per ton. The industry averaged one non-production employee (clerk, manager, etc.) per 3.9 (+/-1.0) production workers. Production per total employees averages 3.4 tons/employee/yr (+/- 1.8), or 15.3 total man-weeks per ton.

"From 1942 to 1945, productivity averaged 10.0 tons/employee/yr (+/- 1.6), or 5.2 total man-weeks per ton. This is about three times the average rate, or about 20% higher than the highest peacetime production rate (1979)."

Excluding 1942-1945, there is no appreciable difference in production rates between GTL6 and GTL7.

As a rule of thumb, then, I suggest one employee per dton of rated shipyard capacity. Of these, 80% will actually be involved in production, while the other 20% are office workers and management. Production can go as high as 300% of rated capacity, by increasing throughput.


Copyright (c) 2002 by Christopher B. Thrash

--------

Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 05:55:39 -0600
From: thrash@io.com
Subject: Re: Shipyard productivity

At 22:25:27, Mar 01, 2002, Hans Rancke-Madsen (rancke@diku.dk) wrote:
> b) 'Shipyard world'; well-rounded society where the main industry is
> building ships, but people also mine ore, refine metal, build
> sub-components, grow food, and engage in various tertiary
> occupations such as education, medicine, entertainment, and
> peacekeeping:
> Shipyard capacity averages 1 dT per 100 inhabitants.

> What about situation b)? I'd be inclined to stick to the 1 dT per 100
> inhabitants figure myself, but I don't really have anything more than
> a gut feeling to back that up. What do the rest of you think?
>
> Is there a setup that would match up with 1 dT per 10 inhabitants?
> Ie. 3 workers doing something else (probably related) for each 2
> people actually working at the yard, plus everybody's families?

Going back again to the oft-cited (by me, at least) Space Settlement: A Design Study (NASA SP-413), they assumed that 44% of a 10,000-person colony population (4597/10350), or 61% of the total labor force (4597/7523), could be employed in "export activity," in this case the construction of solar power satellites. They say (App. G, p. 73),

"Labor force participation rates would be expected to decline to approximately U.S. levels eventually. Export activity as a proportion of total labor force assumed to resemble those found in U.S. communities of comparable size."

The accompanying Table 4-14 (ibid.), Minimum Percentages Employed in 14 Industry Classifications in American Communities of Varying Sizes, 1960 and 1950, shows 25-29% of the labor force of small communities (10,000-12,500), and 33-36% of large communities' (100,000-150,000) engaged in primary production, secondary production, or transportation. At the other extreme, only 1.7-3.6% of small community, and 3.4-4.5% of large communities are engaged in the manufacture of durable goods per se.

Your 1 dton per 10 inhabitants case falls midway between the maximal values; i.e., if shipyard workers represent 40% of the workforce, and there are 3 non-workforce inhabitant per worker. This is fully functional, but single-industry community -- if the shipyard closes down, the community dries up and blows away.

Your case b (1 dton per 100 inhabitants, shipyard 4% of the workforce) represents a community with a variety of industries, of which the shipyard is the single most important. Loss of the yard would be a severe blow to the local economy, but the community could survive long enough to find a replacement, if one was forthcoming.

The canonical 1 dton per 1000 inhabitants (0.4% of workforce) represents a robust world economy, where the shipyard is just one industry among many.


Copyright (c) 2002 by Christopher B. Thrash


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 Post subject: Re: shipyard
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 7:59 pm 
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That's some great information, thanks!

So by those guidelines, a shipyard with 200 workers could produce a far trader in 12 months. And you might see such a shipyard in a settlement with 50,000 inhabitants.

If Boeing has 150,000 employees, then they could produce 750 far traders per year (coincidentally that's close to how many planes they produce per year). And they'd be part of a community of about 3.75 million. Oh hey, that's the Seattle metro area.

Your math checks out pretty good, Thrash. :)


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 Post subject: Re: shipyard
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 8:15 pm 
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Thanks! It's always good to get a sanity check, especially from a completely different but still relevant industry.


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 Post subject: Re: shipyard
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 8:12 am 
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Maybe the construction rate ought to depend on cost rather than dtonnage. Radars take more labour to instal than deck plating.

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 Post subject: Re: shipyard
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:52 pm 
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Hey, I picked up GT: Starports and now vaguely remember owning the hardcopy a dozen-ish years ago. It's a lot of good info.


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 Post subject: Re: shipyard
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 7:15 pm 
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Great info!

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