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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:13 pm 
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EDG wrote:
Well, I am :) - except I ditched Gliese3 completely and replaced it with Hipparcos because Gliese was so inaccurate by comparison.


The positional data for all the Gliese catalogs has been updated:

Accurate Coordinates and 2MASS Cross Identifications for (Almost) All Gliese Catalog Stars

Unfortunately, it doesn't include parallaxes.

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I believe you're already familiar with my Stellar Mapping page, LiNeNoiSE? That's what this new map is made from - it's the Extended Hipparcos data


I actually have a couple of questions about how you processed the XHIP data.

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with the RECONS, DENSE, and CTIOPI catalogues (you can grab them from my website),


Already grabbed them. :)

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and some stuff from recent WISE papers by Dupuy & Liu (2012), Bihain et al (2013), Kirkpatrick et al (2011 and 2012), Marsh et al (2013), and Luhman (2013) which I haven't added to the website yet.


Yeah, I've got a year-and-a-half's worth of catching up to do. :)

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The LDwarf catalogue from my site was in there but it's been completely superseded by the WISE stuff.


Oh well, it was useful at the time. The data was in one place and somebody was maintaining it. Don't know if they still are.

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7.7 parsecs is a huge distance though - you'd have to radically expand the human sphere for it to be a limit, or you've pretty much removed that as a limitation and don't have Arms at all since every star in 2300AD is accessible from everywhere else.


Yeah, if you like the background and the technology, the game is too badly broken to be fixed.

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Welcome aboard, BTW!


Thanks!

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:16 pm 
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JustinInOz wrote:
If 7.7 is too big, what would be a distance limit that would cause the conectivity to stop being saturated? The 7.7, in my opinion, is an arbitrary amount that is chooses so that arms and some sort of "geography" appear.


As I understand it, it was arbitrarily chosen because it made pretty pictures on the MacSpin program they using.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:47 pm 
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(Anders is vastly smarter than I am!)


I'm not sure that I'd admit that. :)

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I dunno if the guys at GDW calculated this or if they just experimented with numbers to see what worked best using the Gliese 3 catalogue.


I don't think they looked at the data or they would've seen the "Unreliable" flag next to the parallax fields for Vogelheim, Kimanjano, Queen Alice's Star, and Berthier. :)

Anyway, if you're going to go through all that trouble, you might as well just write a new game which is what he did with Big Ideas, Grand Vision.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 4:44 pm 
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I wouldn't say that 2300AD is broken at all... the existing map is, but that can be fixed (which is the whole point of this ;) ).

I've been looking at the Chinese Arm lately and that's pretty interesting with the realistic map - this is what I wrote about it on the 2300AD facebook group:

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I think I've figured out the Chinese Arm, I'll post something in the next few days. The Chinese Arm itself is largely unchanged, with a couple of extra worlds to fill the gaps (the gap between Ross 780 (DM-15 6290) and Gliese 908 (DM+1 4774) is particularly annoying - it's 7.71 ly!).

The Canadians gain a pretty extensive arm of their own though that branches from Gliese 908, which includes the interesting systems of Fomalhaut and Delta Capricorni (Doris and Eriksson can also go on there).

The Eber world of Kormoran is accessible via a short side-branch from Tau Ceti. However, it's actually impossible to get to the (real) Eber homeworld directly from Delta Pavonis - the branch to Beta Hydri is 9.29 ly. The Eber could have done it with their better stutterwarp drives though. It is still ultimately possible to get there though, but you have to take a long winding route from Wolf 1453 on the Latin Finger.

I thought the Latin Finger seemed a bit limited at first since if you do it as described in 2300AD it joins up with the new French arm at Procyon, but it does contain Wolf 1453 which is the access point for the aforementioned huge arm that goes to Beta Hydri (and the Eber Homeworld), as well as another arm that goes more directly away from human space. So that's a major area of expansion in its own right now.

The Sung are lumbered with a deadend though - Stark is the next world out from a tiny branch from Gliese 908, and the only other system accessible from Stark is a brown dwarf.


I'll take a look at the American Arm next, and then I can start writing them up as blog articles with pretty pictures ;).

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 2:27 am 
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EDG wrote:
I wouldn't say that 2300AD is broken at all... the existing map is, but that can be fixed (which is the whole point of this ;) ).


I suppose it could be fixed by expanding stutterwarp ranges per tech level.
Maybe keep 7.7 ly at TL 9 with longer ranges at TL's 11 and 12. I haven't really thought about it much.


I've been looking at the Chinese Arm lately and that's pretty interesting with the realistic map - this is what I wrote about it on the 2300AD facebook group:

Quote:
The Canadians gain a pretty extensive arm of their own though that branches from Gliese 908, which includes the interesting systems of Fomalhaut and Delta Capricorni (Doris and Eriksson can also go on there).


Isn't Doris one of the phony stars? By my calculation, BD+20°5046 (Gliese 841.1) (HIP 108296) is 1,315 ly away (Validation of the New Hipparcos Reduction). It's 1,822 ly away under XHIP.

I'm using the New Validation instead of XHIP because the standard error per parallax estimate is lower. (0.38/2.48=0.15 vs. 1.11/1.79=0.62)

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I'll take a look at the American Arm next, and then I can start writing them up as blog articles with pretty pictures ;).


Ok, cool! Your pictures are much prettier than GDW's. :)

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 2:43 am 
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Interestingly enough, a planet has actually been reported in orbit around "Doris":

http://exoplanet.eu/catalog/hd_208527_b/

The discoverer lists the distance as 1,044 ly +/- 199 ly.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 4:54 am 
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LiNeNoiSe wrote:
EDG wrote:
I wouldn't say that 2300AD is broken at all... the existing map is, but that can be fixed (which is the whole point of this ;) ).


I suppose it could be fixed by expanding stutterwarp ranges per tech level.
Maybe keep 7.7 ly at TL 9 with longer ranges at TL's 11 and 12. I haven't really thought about it much.


Longer ranges are actually what break it. I tried using the Eber stutterwarp range of 9.6 (?) ly, and that basically makes it possible to reach all of a star's neighbours from any given star. That would just completely destroy the "arms", far more than updating the map to realistic stars does.


Quote:
Isn't Doris one of the phony stars? By my calculation, BD+20°5046 (Gliese 841.1) (HIP 108296) is 1,315 ly away (Validation of the New Hipparcos Reduction). It's 1,822 ly away under XHIP.


Yeah it is - I meant Kanata (the planet) :). i.e. move the planet Kanata to one of the stars on the new Fomalhaut arm. There is actually a star with almost the same type as Doris there too - Gliese 879, a K4 V right next to Fomalhaut - but as luck would have it they both have been discussed in a paper written about their ages that says they're both about 200 million years old, which is not very conducive for a habitable planet!

And yes, I did spot that the actual star referred to as Doris did have a planet too :)

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 4:57 am 
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Having reviewed your pretty pictures, I see that you have proposed moving Doris to GJ 1002.

Back in the 90's, I used the Gliese 3 program on Nyrath's site and decided to move Doris to Gliese 892.

Using the J2000.0 position for Doris with the Gliese 2 parallax, ChView tells me that GJ 892 is 15.5464 ly away and GJ 1002 is 17.0186 ly away. You might want to check that in your Pretty Picture Machine.

I used the ICRS J2000.0 positions from Simbad, along with the New Validation parallax for GJ 892 and 1995 GCTP parallax for GJ 1002.

Advantages of GJ 892 - It's closer to the original location. It's listed as K3V. Three candidate companions identified in 2010PASP.122.1195T.

Disadvantages of GJ 892 - Simbad lists it as a flare star (NSV 14458). CCDM and WDS both list it as multiple. I've only mapped stars within 35 ly of Earth, so there's probably something else I've overlooked.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 5:04 am 
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Gliese 1002 is an M5 V star, kinda between a bunch of other stars on the Chinese Arm itself. It could work but it would mean starting the Canadian Arm further back towards Sol.

Gliese 892 is pretty far out of the way though - it's nowhere near either the Chinese or Canadian Arms (it might be on the American Arm, I haven't had a chance to look at that yet).

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 5:21 am 
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EDG wrote:
Gliese 892 is pretty far out of the way though - it's nowhere near either the Chinese or Canadian Arms (it might be on the American Arm, I haven't had a chance to look at that yet).


Ok, thanks. ChView doesn't give a very good perspective on the Arms. I'd pretty much need a separate file for each Arm to see how they would work.

I still think it's too broke to fix. Scrap everything except the aliens. Start over from 2100. Use THS as the background instead of T2K. :)

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