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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:41 pm 
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BTW, I'm still actually working on these more realistic systems... it's not actually on hold anymore, I got the evolution grids updated. Right now I'm busy working on a project, but when I get the time I'll post a few more systems here.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:05 am 
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EDG wrote:
ffilz wrote:
EDG wrote:
Dietrich hault-Rauln wrote:
Are you a JTAS Online subscriber? It so happens that I wrote a couple of articles on exactly that subject there...
Are you able to publish these articles yourself? I'd love to see them, but I'm not all that interested in spending $20 to join JTAS.
I wish. Unfortunately I can't publish them myself, and despite asking SJG several times over the years if they're ever going to to something sensible like actually allow people to buy articles individually, there's been no movement on that front. It's really annoying. :(

There's always the option of writing another paper on the subject, updated for all the latest advances ... ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:49 am 
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Well, this is nice to know. I can actually generate systems that look kinda like our own solar system! :)

Code:
   Num Star      Age    ZMass   Mass        ZLum             Lum         Rad   Met Pha
 34225 K1 V     5.868   0.838   0.838      0.3224473      0.3928324     0.786   2   1
 
ZAMS Inner Zone =    0.501   Current Inner Zone =    0.548
ZAMS Earth Equiv=    0.568   Current Earth Equiv=    0.627
ZAMS Hab Zone   =    0.995   Current Hab Zone   =    1.090
ZAMS Outer Zone =    1.440   Current Outer Zone =    1.589

 Habitable
Num    AU        ecc       type      mass     den        rad        peri       aph      hill     inner     outer      4:1       3:2     migrate
 1     0.100     0.356     4.000     0.001  3500.000  5000.000     0.064     0.136     0.001     0.063     0.141     0.040     0.076     0.912
 2     0.210     0.086     4.000     0.019  6500.000 11000.000     0.192     0.228     0.004     0.180     0.248     0.083     0.160     0.912
 3     0.378     0.260     4.000     0.001  5000.000  5000.000     0.280     0.476     0.003     0.272     0.501     0.150     0.288     0.912
 4     0.680     0.043     4.000     0.002  5000.000  5000.000     0.651     0.710     0.005     0.636     0.729     0.270     0.519     0.912
 5     1.497     0.000     5.000      Planetoid Belt
 6     2.233     0.016     2.000     1.297  1470.000 73666.500     2.197     2.269     0.176     1.668     2.974     0.886     1.704     0.912
 7     5.627     0.242     2.000     0.146   876.500 42285.500     4.265     6.988     0.215     3.729     8.491     2.233     4.294     0.912
 8    22.450     0.396     1.000     0.110  1308.000 33650.000    13.560    31.341     0.779    11.612    37.572     8.909    17.133     0.912
 9    44.901     0.072     1.000     0.109  1268.640 33860.000    41.669    48.132     1.552    37.014    55.890    17.819    34.266     0.912
 
Orbit = 0.100 AU, Radius =  5000. km, Density = 3500. kg/m3, Mass= .001 MJ, BBTemp=  697.6 K, MMW=    35.45, Atm=  10
Orbit = 0.210 AU, Radius = 11000. km, Density = 6500. kg/m3, Mass= .019 MJ, BBTemp=  481.4 K, MMW=     2.72, Atm=  16
Orbit = 0.378 AU, Radius =  5000. km, Density = 5000. kg/m3, Mass= .001 MJ, BBTemp=  358.8 K, MMW=    12.76, Atm=  10
Orbit = 0.680 AU, Radius =  5000. km, Density = 5000. kg/m3, Mass= .002 MJ, BBTemp=  267.4 K, MMW=     8.63, Atm=   8 *


Ok, the star is less massive but at least the general layout is the same - four rocky planets, an asteroid belt, and four gas giants (two large, two small - and they're even fairly similar to our own!).

The interesting thing is that out of 500,000 systems that I generated, about 80 had four rockies, a belt, and four jovians - but only 11 of them had two large and two small jovians. I'd probably have to generate a few million to find any that had the exact same layout (including the size and order of the rockies and right star type). But I need to revamp the world size and density generation systems first.

Still, that's reassuring - I can get systems that at least look like our own - and this one even has a habitable planet!

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:53 am 
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EDG wrote:
I'd probably have to generate a few million to find any that had the exact same layout (including the size and order of the rockies and right star type).

This does not seem unrealistic to me, there are so many variables involved
that it seems plausible to me that only one in a few million systems is like
the Sol system.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:07 pm 
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rust wrote:
EDG wrote:
I'd probably have to generate a few million to find any that had the exact same layout (including the size and order of the rockies and right star type).

This does not seem unrealistic to me, there are so many variables involved
that it seems plausible to me that only one in a few million systems is like
the Sol system.


And I'd probably have to be able to make a few of those before I got one that was the right age, with a third planet that had a habitable atmosphere.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:55 am 
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OK, I've sorted out the rocky size/density generation, and this is what a system like our own looks like now:

Code:
   Num Star      Age    ZMass   Mass        ZLum             Lum         Rad   Met Pha
 51920 G0 V     4.394   1.044   1.044      0.9041499      1.4842899     1.155   2   1
 
ZAMS Inner Zone =    0.784   Current Inner Zone =    0.994
ZAMS Hab Zone   =    1.570   Current Hab Zone   =    1.993
ZAMS Earth Equiv=    0.951   Current Earth Equiv=    1.218
ZAMS Outer Zone =    2.411   Current Outer Zone =    3.089

Num    AU        ecc       type      mass     den        rad        peri       aph      hill     inner     outer      4:1       3:2     migrate
 1     0.200     0.398     4.000     0.000  3500.000  2000.000     0.120     0.280     0.001     0.119     0.284     0.079     0.153     0.653
 2     0.360     0.050     4.000     0.002  5000.000  6000.000     0.342     0.378     0.003     0.332     0.391     0.143     0.275     0.653
 3     0.540     0.210     4.000     0.000  5000.000  3000.000     0.427     0.653     0.002     0.420     0.670     0.214     0.412     0.653
 4     1.080     0.007     4.000     0.002  5000.000  6000.000     1.073     1.087     0.010     1.044     1.116     0.429     0.824     0.653
 5     1.404     0.000     5.000      Planetoid Belt
 6     3.464     0.042     3.000     1.699  2228.550 70178.000     3.318     3.611     0.278     2.483     4.724     1.375     2.644     0.653
 7     5.889     0.026     2.000     0.511  1189.800 57972.500     5.739     6.040     0.317     4.788     7.308     2.337     4.495     0.653
 8    11.190     0.037     1.000     0.096  1531.440 30528.000    10.778    11.602     0.345     9.743    12.982     4.441     8.540     0.653
 9    15.666     0.092     1.000     0.096  1740.720 29208.000    14.232    17.100     0.482    12.786    19.510     6.217    11.955     0.653
 
Orbit = 0.200 AU, Radius =  2000. km, Density = 3500. kg/m3, Mass= .000 MJ, BBTemp=  687.8 K, MMW=   218.44, Atm=   0
Orbit = 0.360 AU, Radius =  6000. km, Density = 5000. kg/m3, Mass= .002 MJ, BBTemp=  512.6 K, MMW=    12.66, Atm=  10
Orbit = 0.540 AU, Radius =  3000. km, Density = 5000. kg/m3, Mass= .000 MJ, BBTemp=  418.6 K, MMW=    41.36, Atm=   1
Orbit = 1.080 AU, Radius =  6000. km, Density = 5000. kg/m3, Mass= .002 MJ, BBTemp=  296.0 K, MMW=     7.31, Atm=   4 *


This one's a bit more like it (though its "Jupiter" is actually a small superjovian that is a bit more massive than our own). I'm not really happy with the atmosphere generation so far... so for now just assume that the "4" just means "some kind of Breathable atmosphere".

The habitable planet here would be rather nicely earthlike, though being near the edge of the asteroid belt might have caused more frequent mass extinctions in its history as asteroids wandered in or got deflected by the superjovian (which is closer to the star than Jupiter is in our own system).

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:06 am 
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And here's what a somewhat busier one looks like - it's got the largest number of planets in this run (14 in total, including the belt), and also happens to have a possibly habitable planet:

Code:
  Num Star      Age    ZMass   Mass        ZLum             Lum         Rad   Met Pha
 44458 K6 V     9.515   0.578   0.578      0.0704779      0.0743043     0.528   2   1
 
ZAMS Inner Zone =    0.250   Current Inner Zone =    0.256
ZAMS Hab Zone   =    0.497   Current Hab Zone   =    0.510
ZAMS Earth Equiv=    0.265   Current Earth Equiv=    0.273
ZAMS Outer Zone =    0.673   Current Outer Zone =    0.691

Num    AU        ecc       type      mass     den        rad        peri       aph      hill     inner     outer      4:1       3:2     migrate
 1     0.010     0.253     4.000     0.001  5000.000  5000.000     0.007     0.013     0.000     0.007     0.013     0.004     0.008     0.994
 2     0.020     0.062     4.000     0.006  5000.000  8000.000     0.019     0.021     0.000     0.018     0.023     0.008     0.015     0.994
 3     0.030     0.182     4.000     0.015  5000.000 11000.000     0.025     0.035     0.001     0.023     0.040     0.012     0.023     0.994
 4     0.063     0.057     4.000     0.011  5000.000 10000.000     0.059     0.067     0.001     0.056     0.072     0.025     0.048     0.994
 5     0.107     0.024     4.000     0.008  5000.000  9000.000     0.105     0.110     0.002     0.099     0.117     0.043     0.082     0.994
 6     0.193     0.062     4.000     0.006  5000.000  8000.000     0.181     0.205     0.003     0.172     0.219     0.077     0.147     0.994
 7     0.366     0.227     4.000     0.001  5000.000  5000.000     0.283     0.449     0.003     0.275     0.473     0.145     0.280     0.994
 8     0.769     0.000     5.000      Planetoid Belt
 9     1.703     0.117     2.000     0.626  1136.000 62970.500     1.504     1.902     0.119     1.146     2.619     0.676     1.300     0.994
10     3.407     0.204     1.000     0.090  1474.560 30192.000     2.710     4.103     0.125     2.398     4.977     1.352     2.600     0.994
11     7.154     0.187     1.000     0.209  1611.600 38874.000     5.815     8.493     0.348     4.945    10.928     2.839     5.459     0.994
12    12.877     0.084     1.000     0.054  1235.340 27078.000    11.798    13.956     0.399    10.600    15.952     5.110     9.827     0.994
13    20.603     0.126     1.000     0.123  1587.660 32724.000    18.015    23.192     0.839    15.497    28.227     8.176    15.723     0.994
14    41.207     0.084     1.000     0.032  1431.300 21598.000    37.763    44.650     1.070    34.553    50.001    16.353    31.447     0.994
 
Orbit = 0.010 AU, Radius =  5000. km, Density = 5000. kg/m3, Mass= .001 MJ, BBTemp= 1454.9 K, MMW=    51.75, Atm=   0
Orbit = 0.020 AU, Radius =  8000. km, Density = 5000. kg/m3, Mass= .006 MJ, BBTemp= 1028.7 K, MMW=    14.29, Atm=  10
Orbit = 0.030 AU, Radius = 11000. km, Density = 5000. kg/m3, Mass= .015 MJ, BBTemp=  840.0 K, MMW=     6.17, Atm=  10
Orbit = 0.063 AU, Radius = 10000. km, Density = 5000. kg/m3, Mass= .011 MJ, BBTemp=  579.6 K, MMW=     5.15, Atm=  10
Orbit = 0.107 AU, Radius =  9000. km, Density = 5000. kg/m3, Mass= .008 MJ, BBTemp=  444.6 K, MMW=     4.88, Atm=  10
Orbit = 0.193 AU, Radius =  8000. km, Density = 5000. kg/m3, Mass= .006 MJ, BBTemp=  331.4 K, MMW=     4.60, Atm=  10
Orbit = 0.366 AU, Radius =  5000. km, Density = 5000. kg/m3, Mass= .001 MJ, BBTemp=  240.4 K, MMW=     8.55, Atm=   5 *


This is a pretty extensive (and old) system orbiting a K6 V star. Given the system's age, all of the rocky planets are tidelocked (and there are no less than five superearths in there, two of which are rather huge!). I'm not *entirely* sure that the orbits of the second and third planets are going to be dynamically stable, it'll be an interesting one to look at in GravSim (though I'd have to omit most of the gas giants - the range of orbital periods here would cause problems if I included the small GGs).

Not really sure if the outermost rocky is going to be habitable either, it's rather cold! If the atmosphere was denser than indicated (again, consider "atm= 5" to mean "some kind of breathable atmosphere") it might warm things up enough to be earthlike in places though (especially given that it's tidelocked). Though given that the system is almost twice as old as our own, and the planet is smaller than Earth, I suspect it might be dying geologically-speaking.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:02 pm 
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By the way, so far about 2.8% of all the systems being generated have potentially habitable planets. Most of those are M V stars at the moment because I've allowed rocky planets to be found at initial orbits of 0.01 AU - excluding those would drop it down to more like 1.2%. I only have 284 systems with a G V primary that have potentially habitable planets.

Thing is, habitable worlds are rare. Even if it's a dead cert that in the right circumstances you'd get life, you still need the right kind of star, at the right age, with a planet of the right size and density at the right distance with the right kind of eccentricity. And the other planets in the system need to allow that planet to be there (i.e. no jupiters crossing its orbit or turning it into an asteroid belt). All of that stacks up to making habitable planets rather unlikely - given enough stars then sure, you'd find them - but they're going to be separated by dozens of lightyears, not found in pretty much every other parsec like in Traveller.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:35 pm 
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Is "habitable" in your definition limited to "shirt sleeve environment",
or does it include borderline habitable planets like Mars, too ?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:41 pm 
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No, it means atm 4-9/D/E only - planets that have a breathable atmosphere. Most planets out there are Vacuum (atm 0 or 1) or Exotic (which is also a blanket term here, covering Atm A, B, and G - but those make up the vast majority of worlds that are generated).

(that said, I'm not generating hydrosphere yet, but many of those Exotic worlds in the habitable zone might still have anaerobic microbial life in their oceans. So the nonhabitable worlds aren't necessarily lifeless, they're just not shirt-sleeve environments).

(Mars habitability discussion has been split off to viewtopic.php?f=41&t=2118)

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